Conversation Chapter 1: Exploring the Questions
What might our world look like in 200 years?
What might music sound like?
Why might people dance?
Ebun Oguntola: in 200 years, if we don't really get our act together. I don't think we'll have, you know, an earth in 200 years to be able to dance or listen to music at all. So I feel like there would have to be some sort of like environmental integration or focus within the next 200 years that could somehow incorporate itself into the music that we make.
For how much technology should play a role in what people do and how much it shouldn't.. I think like one quote that really stood out to me by like an artist is like: I want AI to be able to wash my dishes and do my laundry, so that I can make art. Nott have a robot make art so that I can do the dishes, and you know, the laundry.
Lucy Chen: Yeah, I've heard. I think I've heard that quote before. I think I was thinking of something similar and like kind of applying it to music…or… maybe there'd be like some sort of Renaissance that leads back to people trying to appreciate authentic instruments and stuff. Because I feel like, now, you can even use AI to make music, or use technology to visualize music and stuff like that. So I feel like there would definitely be a group of people that capitalize on that and integrate technology into like everything they do, art wise. And then there'd be maybe another group that is like, we don't want to do anything with that, let's stick to like physical instruments, and what is real.
Ebun Oguntola: I honestly don't think we're going to have a Renaissance back to physical instruments, and I'm going to tell you why. I think it's going to be I think it's going to be a part of like our society still, but I feel like kind of how like Robert was talking about how Strauss was like… When you go to the club. You listen to Strauss, you know, but it's become like a thing of the past, where it's like a lot of people don't go to the orchestra anymore. It's not very common for people to, you know, go to a concert hall, and watch people play traditional instruments. And if you notice, a lot of more popular ensembles have become increasingly hybrid. So string instruments, in addition to like electric instruments. And EDM, this incorporation, and I feel like the big shift in music was when Vinyl was created. I feel like at that point like. There was no sound heard except for from the source. And then, once Vinyl and like analog technology came about all of a sudden, you didn't have to be in the same room as another musician to hear them anymore. I can listen to Adele in my room, and I don't have to fly across, and if I want to hear her sing, the idea of having recorded sound was huge…and the ability. And then, you know, with Vinyls came Djing, and that like inspired modern production... So I feel… like digital and analog music has become not only more efficient to share and to create. But I feel like it's bound to expand to the point where… I don't know… I feel like that's honestly something that I might be scared about… traditional instruments and physical things. I feel like it would… have to take someone, someone to be like, we need to go back to our roots and like we need to appreciate, you know what we had before.
Monet Hilliard: I thought a little bit about like if there was ever a resurgence in classical music, and I think even if there was, unfortunately we go through like trends and stuff so quickly like it would see its downfall as soon as it kind of was revived, because… we just don't appreciate things enough. And back when this sort of classical music was in its popular times, it lasted so long. Because again, we evolved slower with the sort of stuff we had… I think if it ever did come back it wouldn't last very long, and I think that would be sort of the last of it.
Lucy Chen: That is true. I feel like just like our whole attention span, and everything is becoming so shortened by like social media and stuff like that. And I feel like in the future, I honestly don't know how that's gonna get better. So I feel like that kind of applies to… all sorts of trends throughout music and dance. Or maybe they'll just be, because people can communicate so easily, there'll just be so many new factions of small groups and whatever. And maybe I don't know if it would be easy to create one cohesive group of anything, and it'd be a bunch of small different communities.
Ebun Oguntola: I feel like music has played such a like pivotal role in human lives, though, since the start, like even before the start of civilization, that I don't think the relationship between music and human beings would be severed. But definitely the way we look at it and the way we perceive it.
Lucy Chen: Yeah, that has me thinking about like how music typically brings people together. Because especially if you're in like a shared space. And if the music is live and everything we, I think, at least in our age, we still like people, still appreciate that a lot. But I'm wondering, in the future, if things get like less and less authentic as you go like, maybe you won't even need a real dj, it's just some like robot up there. The music's already prepared, and it's not coming from a human… I'm wondering will those shared spaces keep existing and be as popular? Or if things become like so easily accessible, maybe you can just like listen to it like in your head? And then, I don't know, it becomes very individualized, which would be a bit sad.
Monet Hilliard: I was thinking, and because I think for me, I was coming from a very dance perspective. But I think… we could discover there could be more like discoveries about sort of elements and things in our environment that we're not really aware of right now, but things to do with vibrations, and specifically for sound waves, and maybe getting in touch with those more. And the way we create music could be a very like different thing as well… I think that was one that I kept kind of discussing with some people. Just the way we can touch into vibrations and create music. And then, even in our heads… the movement that we can create with that as well.
Music does have a major effect on the emotions that people are feeling and that they want people to feel so again, going back to what it the world would be like: Hopefully, we can have some positive emotions reflected. But, I think you you mentioned before, having the divide between like people who, you know, can use like robots for the creation of music. And then people who are really like traditional. And they want to make like, keep that sort of… the difference in the sort of music that they create. Maybe… potentially…because we'll be evolving so much that maybe you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. But, I would like to think that you could feel a difference between the music made by people with real instruments and [the music] that's sort of like not fake, but like just feels a bit vague.
Lucy Chen: That reminds me of a project some of my friends did [who are] really good at coding… they made this thing where they analyze your brainwaves, and then they make music out of like your mood... And I'm just imagining how far that could go in the future… they could take your mood and make different like colors or beats based off of it, and just make it a super immersive thing not only in the way that you're like experiencing it, but it's taking from your own thoughts in real time. I feel like if my friends could make something like that, maybe it's not so far out in the future that something like that could actually exist.
Ebun Oguntola: I took a class last semester … It was like the physics of music sort of class, and we had someone come in, and he had these nodes he would attach to his head where he was able to capture the brain waves and neurons … he was able to capture energy from his brain to convert that into a musical form. But he's also like very into psychedelics. So he would experiment on shrooms, and, other like hallucinogens to see how the music would like deviate based off of what was going on up here.
Lucy Chen: That also reminds me of I don't know if you guys have seen when they like clip something to like a plant, and then the clip somehow converts the plants energy into music or something. I don't know if you guys have seen that. But I feel like, maybe in the future … the sounds of nature could literally be transformed into music. Somehow.
Monet Hilliard: Yeah, maybe more instruments or … the things we use to make music, if we think down a different path than just technology, but our environment.
Ebun Oguntola: … technology made a huge impact on music ... I feel like at this point … Musicians and artists are just so interested in so many different ways, we can make it, and unconventional methods so whether it's hooking up things to plants or people's brains…I can imagine that.
Conversation Chapter 2 – How Will it Feel?
Lucy Chen: I feel like the 1st thing that comes to mind for me is that if I try to imagine living in a futuristic world, I already kind of feel overwhelmed because I feel like there'd be so many things going on. I feel like that, plus the combination of having access to so many different things through technology, I feel like it'll it's really up to the individual to seek out what things they deem like really important to them, and like what makes … their identity. So whether that's through music, or dance or any type of art form, I feel like you'll have to be really intentional with finding that for yourself, and I feel like it'll be much more of an individualized experience than maybe doing it together, because I feel like everything will just be like, accessible to everyone.
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Monet Hilliard: I think for me when I was thinking about it, in terms … your reality being shifted, and not knowing because things become so realistic from if it was me, I would feel it would be really important to interact more with people, because it could bring people together in a way that like, you know, when you're talking to somebody face to face… So maybe like, that's something that's I feel that I would need to do and that's me. And then I think with movement, not necessarily with other people, you can always move - it's always something you can do in yourself. if you're able to. So maybe it would become again more, something that I would feel like I wouldn't need to do to remind myself that I'm … real, and I'm doing it.
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Ebun Oguntola: The idea that, you know, music is going to expand. And, you know, grow into something we haven't seen before. It's like really cool. But I do have worries about the role of the musician. Like as a composer I don't want AI making music. I want to make the music so that I have a job. And I'm doing something I love.
Lucy Chen: Wait. No, I agree so much, though, because especially at my school, so many people talk about like AI, and just like, Oh, my God, technology going forward is so cool. But I feel like in that you kind of lose what it means to make music and art, which is that it comes from a human expression. And you can't take that away. Because if it's AI, it's not human by definition, which is why I kind of imagine that in the future there will definitely be at least some community of people that are just very staunchly like, Oh, we need like real music.
But, I don't know. It's kind of hard, because I feel like as you get into a new generation people are born with a new sort of ground zero, if that makes sense. I feel like, at least when we grew up, there definitely wasn't AI and stuff like that. But people in the future are going to be born with that preconception already there, so I feel like it's kind of hard to say.
Ebun Oguntola: And also the AI models need something to train off of, right? So you need to have human works that it trains off of. So, I feel like partially what could happen is if they completely replace humans as artists, human or musical evolution would stagnate, it would only be able to reproduce a very limited set of information. And then eventually, there's this theory, where if you train AI off of AI … then it it becomes more messed up and more messed up. If you train information from the AI on information that was created from AI, and you loop it over and over, It becomes a mess, it becomes unintelligible. And so I feel like that same thing could happen with music.
What if music just doesn't evolve anymore?
Monet Hilliard: That's, I think, with you talking about becoming more and more messed up, it could get to a point where… it's just music is supposed to be enjoyable, and it could just get to a point where it's not anymore. And then that's just not something that people … they don't want to listen to it … which is really sad. But then maybe that could [be] a cause for people who were kind of always there and always appreciated traditional like music, and the way it's made, and that sort of has a resurgence. And then we could even - it could just go back straight to the beginning, and we can see more classical music.
Ebun Oguntola: Yeah, I feel like… we've seen that, we've seen trends recycle, you know, like baggy jeans … skinny jeans used to be in. And now we're like back to, you know, more baggy. I guess … originality isn't really as original as we think it is. Even without the influence of technology, because we, we recycle a lot of things. So that's definitely something that could happen.
Ebun Oguntola: one thing I'm worried about, though, is technology's ability to simulate social interaction. And that also being part of the deception. I feel like as complex as technology may become, I feel like it'll also bring about a feeling of mistrust and a kind of paranoia
Monet Hilliard: Because of that mistrust, we could become very secluded and independent and kind of alone, which is sad to think about. Maybe … we won't be very social anymore.
Conversation Chapter 3: A structure emerges
Chaos/end of music
Nothing/silence
Music and dance reborn
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Monet Hilliard: I I like in my head I can picture so much happening, but I’m not very good at describing, but I think like with the emptiness, I think that would be kind of when it's the mistrust as well that we were discussing and that's kind of when we retreat back into ourselves. But then, there's that kind of need for socialization. And then - I know we talked about this ages ago, but you were talking about the communities, and how like you could have a side that's still wanting to hold on to the traditional ways we make music and interact and everything like that. But then, how would they? Because we've just talked about how one side with technology would kind of evolve and live. But then that side would continue like that, or would they eventually be influenced? And then, if it stayed that way, would they be the cause for, like that sort of loop back to the start?
Ebun Oguntola: that's like a pretty like logical … because for people who … if everyone is with the tech like, how are you going to come back? I was going to actually even ask like, how would people be able to revert back to... I don't want to say revert, but expand on what we had before, where technology played too much of a role. And so, if you have these people who are kind of underground, you know, who are able to become come above the ground. Now that there's a desperate need for that. Then they ca kind of take control. And usher in a new wave of like music that's more authentic. I don't want to say authentic, because now authentic means that's more heartfelt rather than formulaic and robotic.
Lucy Chen: Yeah, I feel like, just because of our human nature at a certain point there's just gonna be a tipping point. But also the point that you brought up about, like the different communities, like some people, will be very loyal to the idea of authentic music.
Monet Hilliard: We see a switch between what is considered normal music and kind of that authentic. But then, if we had that tipping point where we went back to the start. Would it be appreciated? Would it be accepted? Would people like it, or would it be the same thing we're seeing now, where there's people who are against technology and that sort of thing. Or would they be like, oh, this is like beautiful! This is what music is supposed to sound like! You know?
Ebun Oguntola: I feel like, and I remember what I was going to say before, about how classical music used to be like Pop. That was pop in the day. And now classical music is seen as archaic, you know. And now pop music is at the forefront. So … our version ofmainstream music is going to be something that we see as something that's like archaic.
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Robert Binet: Can I ask you guys a question? So imagine all of this. You know, AI training on AI. Music becoming ugly. People don't want to listen to it anymore, because it no longer serves the same purpose. And then you're born. And so you are born in this time where people have lost their relationship to music, and therefore dance, because it no longer was pleasurable. And so it kind of doesn't exist. But we all agree that rhythms and sounds that are pleasing enrich us and make us move. So how might you start to find those?
Ebun Oguntola: We all can sing, right? And it's like the way that the human body is oriented, and the way that we differentiate sound from music or, just, you know, chaotic noise versus organized sound, is like - it's wired in to how our brain functions and how our brain recognizes things. So it might not even … it's not necessarily something you have to learn. It might be something that you're continually fed … You know, we can create ourselves. So I feel like, you know, vocals, just, you know, singing and being able to use your own body as a source of instrumentation. It's a natural way human beings can operate that doesn't necessarily depend on what came before. We have like birds who that have have pitch-based calls, and pleasant calls.
Music has mimicked - music is supposed to be a determinant or a describer of what is happening out there, and unless there are creatures that create things, create noises that are pleasant to the human ear that are not dictated by technology unless, like they become extinct or something, I feel like it's just something that we kind of know how to do. We just need to have that sort of communal push.
Monet Hilliard: Do you think like I mean - it might not be the case, because, like you said, we don't need a product given to us to be able to make music and movement, and everything. We can just do it, you said it was like wired in us with evolution. But do you think If you were born into a time when music and movement wasn't a thing that people did, that it would slowly evolve out of us?
Lucy Chen: I feel like if humans had discovered or started making music out of nothing at one point, I don't know, like a hundred thousand years ago, then I feel like we can do it again because I'm sure people just made music together for the first time by making some sort of rhythm with their hands, and then chanting together, or something like that. Maybe it doesn't even have to be singing like it can just be speaking words in some sort of rhythm. But I feel like if we have done that in throughout history, and we're starting from like a blank slate after chaotic AI stuff, then we can always go back, and especially if people are kind of wanting to try to be more authentic. I don't know if people who are born in that age will have that sense. But I'm hoping that they will. Then I feel like we can.
Monet Hilliard: For me - because I mean, you guys obviously would feel the exact same way when you're like composing something - it's very exciting when I can hear things or see things coming together, I think it's just so beautiful. And I I feel like it would be kind of like when you're creating something with your friends and you kind of just keep egging each other on. And you're like, oh, what if we did this? Or what if we did this? And it would just be kind of become like this really exciting process of workshopping things. And yeah, I mean it's kind of how it is now.
Ebun Oguntola: I feel like what's really hard as an artist is that there's so much out there. It's hard to like make something new. It's hard to feel like your original. So, starting from ground zero like, I feel like… I would actually be… I would feel really excited because I'd feel like I'm actually like genuinely making something new and I'm rebuilding something that's lost. I feel like the sadness involved with the destruction would be there. But if I was born into the destruction, I don't know any world before that. My view is very limited. So I'm now exposed to these things that are so interesting and so sonically pleasant and emotional. I just can't imagine what it would be like to be able to expose yourself to the music that we have out of nothing, out of chaos, after experiencing that. I feel like it's really all relative if you come from [how] people appreciated the ability to get music because it used to be so much more difficult. Now, if it's difficult to get back there again, then we're going to appreciate it further, and it's going to feel newer to us. It's going to feel more impactful to us and developing it is just going to be very exciting.
Lucy Chen: Discovering music again for the 1st time, It kind of reminded me of the first time that I heard a piece of music, and truly got affected by it, because I had been playing piano since I was 4. But when I went to this piano camp, when I was 13, and I heard someone play Rachmaninoff, hat was the 1st time I was like, wow, like I consciously actually thought about how music made me feel … and then after that, I wanted to learn composing and everything like that. So I imagine that once you just feel that thread for the very 1st time, I feel like it's pretty easy to like snowball off of that. And just like, think about why our bodies are like so attuned to music and stuff like that.